http://eve-search.com/thread/391410-0/page/1

After 6-7 years this has become more then just flogging a horse, but still is an elephant in the room for CCP. But who cares about the vocal minority right.

From page 15:

"Unifex: Once we have a theme, we can begin to thread the issues you've identified as needing to be prioritized into that theme. POS's, for example, desperately need some improvement. How do we fit that work into our theme? Maybe we don't do all of the modular POS work at once, but we start by making some modules, solving the hangar problem, for instance. But that new hangar module would also exist to support other new activities as part of the themed expansion. "


From page 99:

"Seagull: We have 4 things that are interacting [regarding the POSes]: the gameplay and design of the POS system, the role POSes play in achieving things in the game (its features), the technical layer (code) then manages all of this (which currently is old and needs refactoring), and art. Regarding art, there is the question of do you want to redo the art, do you want to show individual modules (as opposed to have things inside, like a station), and then you have technical issues, such as what does the rendering complexity of a scene do to client performance?"

"Seagull: The reason there's a GÇ£noGÇ¥ to doing [Modular POSes] right now is that it was affecting all of these areas in a way that was too big to do at once. What you're trying to do is try to find a way to get what you want, but what we need to do is go back and look at how we can separate all these layers, and figure out something reasonable, and then have Art do something that's immersive and amazing."

Nowhere has CCP stated that the Player Owned Structure system will not receive attention. Many of you have already pointed out that it is painful to use at best, a huge pile of unusable dingleberries at worst. Some talk about this being the "old" CCP appearing again but I want to assure all of you that the mistakes that happened in 2011 will not repeat themselves. CCP has only stated that THE OVERHAUL CANNOT HAPPEN ALL AT ONCE

your quoting irrelevant stuff.

CCP Unifex. (Page 37)

It would, however, only affect the group of people who manage POSes.

CCP Soundwave (Page 38)

On top of that, Soundwave added, the POS system by itself would only affect a small portion of the community.

The objections are to those. Any defence for them when it is quite clear that a lot of people have vested interests?

If they don't have functionality, it isn't much of a prototype now, is it?

I think the thread has moved from:

"We want modular POS revamp and we want it yesterday!"

...to...

"We understand our demands may take time, but fix the big issues ASAP please!"

Which in all honesty may not be a bad thing.

There's actually another great post such as this about using the current "outpost" mechanics as a template and just scaling down or using already in-game graphics several pages into this thread.

+100

:P

o/
Celly

Yeah, strip clubs would be awesome... :P

on a different note, in the next few days, I'm going to be putting up 2 more POSes... I sure wish I could look forward to them NOT being the headache i know they're going to end up being until CCP fixes this stuff. :(

but my corpies need places to run their jobs and such, so as a responsible CEO, I must take care of my people...

I have a vision:

A player owned cargo pad is moored in space. To begin with, it is used for mining ops and eventually processing facilities are added to it.
At some point the pad is abandoned, probably because it was no longer needed, but bullet.holes and scorch marks on its exterior point to a more violent explanation. Pirates take over the pad and add docking facilities and a maintenance hanger. Over time it is added to further as more pirates come into the system. Eventually, a large alliance rolls in and absorbs the smaller pirate corporation. The pad becomes an outpost used for holding spare ships in times of war and depositing cargo from the empire's as it filters out to the surrounding systems. More modules and defences are added and what was a little cargo pad is now a station. The Alliance becomes a founder of a new Coalition and the station is chosen to be their main hub. This station becomes a hive of activity, not only producing and selling much of what is needed by its residents, but their close allies as well. Traders come from all over to sell their wares. While they are there, they use the local entertainment; bars and casinos, skin clubs and tattoo parlors. All the while, the Alliance is raking in a small.fortune every day from the token docking fee. 1,000 isk doesn't sound a lot, but when you get over 100,000 visits a day, it helps pay the fuel bills...

Make my vision a reality CCP!

nothing deffinate, but at least POSes got mention there:

The potential for player created and owned structures in EVE is great. But just like both me and CCP Unifex talked about in our recent devblogs, and in the summit sessions, we need to work out how we can realize each piece of that, using our new processes. One expansion worth of work won't be able to address all the problems with the current system, while also giving us all the new possibilities. While we weren't ready to commit to implementing the prototype we have at the moment, we are not abandoning either starbases or their potential.

You will see the first results of our new way of planning expansions towards the end of February, and you can follow the process through the CSM participation and also some updates I'll be giving. I can't and won't promise that specific features or fixes will be part of the summer expansion until we have gone through our pre-production phase.

Thanks for reading this, and for engaging in this discussion.

I hope there is an update soon. But Celly, let's get one thing straight.

You are a consumer, your not a CEO, your not a shareholder, your not a manager, your not even an employee. You have no say in in what happens over at CCP. In short, paying for a product does not mean you pay someones wages. Your lining the guys wallet that is paying their wages.
Here are your options:
1 - Unsub.
2 - Keep paying.
Please note, neither of these results in you deciding if someone gets paid.

I run my own business and I've had that line pulled on me. I basically told them the same thing. In fact, I wasn't this polite.

If you hadn't noticed, CCP has had a few major changes to deal with on theast 12 months. They were already short on time when they started work on the upcoming expansion. Oh, and the roadmap for it has had big changes added along the way. So if they are a bit behind, I think we can forgive them a little, all thongs considered.

I will probably get lynched for this, but I agree fully with CCP Seagull on deciding to hold off on the aesthetic component of the POS system, in order to focus on POS functionality. An eye-candy rework of the POS mechanic is not what the community needs, regardless of what the community thinks it wants. An aesthetic POS expansion will be doomed to failure, because aesthetics are not a major, or even a minor problem with POSes, or even a problem at all.

The current disaggregated system of a single control tower surrounded by detached modules works fine. Some folk may not like the way it looks, but point to anything in the game, and a lot of people will hate its aesthetics. That's part of EVE. But the detached structure system allows a lot of flexibility for the POS designer. I can position modules within easy reach of one another for industrial purposes, out of the way of ships, and anywhere else I damn well please. I can set up tight batteries for easy repping and rearmament, or have a lot of small clusters.

I currently run two large and one small tower; I use them almost every day, in addition to a weekly trip to fuel up mining tower a in the middle of nowhere. So I speak from experience when I say that the current POS layout is fine. If it's changed to a unitary structure, that's fine by me; if it's left alone, I also don't care. Aesthetics are not a big problem, and should not be a priority.

The problem with POSes is the underlying link to corporate roles. The corporate role system has little granularity, especially regarding industry and structure access. Some parts of the role assignment system have little functionality; others are unintuitive and difficult to utilize to their full potential. Improving corporate roles to allow more granular control over access rights, and allowing greater control over access to control towers, will be a much better use of developer time than making a pretty little Lego minigame that no-one really uses because the underlying functionality is broken. Make no mistake -- aesthetics are nice, and I won't complain if the POS rework comes with a major aesthetic overhaul, but aesthetics should not take place of a solid re-design of the POS framework and how it interfaces with actual use of the towers themselves.

We have had aesthetic expansions without any content. The player base will fiddle with the pretty lights, and then shrug and ignore it. Anyone who thinks otherwise should consider just how successful and useful Incarna was. Technically, Incarna is amazing, but it has no interactive component, no gameplay.

I would like a POS system where giving permission for someone to manufacture ammo does not also allow him to cancel every corp industrial and research job in the universe. I want to be able to segregate access to different arrays based on title and role. I want blueprint lockdown to not induce carpal tunnel syndrome. And if I want to give someone access to everything, then by God I should be allowed to do that as well, sanity be damned. In sum, I want better control over who can do what to which thing at a POS.

**** modular POSes. I want modular corp roles and modular corp access. The pretty eye candy can wait.

That being said, there are some easy improvements to the current POS system:

- POS refining arrays. They refine at a max 75% efficiency. This may have made sense before Rorquals and exhumers were a thing. But now, they have too little capacity (one or two Hulks can keep an intensive refining array busy), are too slow, and take way too much fitting space. More damnably, it is always more efficient to compress minerals for export than to use the refining array, even considering the cost of fuel. Allow for 100% refining at these things, or at least massively improve their throughpout so a player faces a meaningful choice between refining a lot of stuff, or shipping out compressed ore.

- Missile batteries. Why do they consume CPU? Why are they the only weapon system that goes offline under reinforce? A tower full of missiles can be tanked by a battleship local repper, so the entire POS missile system could use a major look at.

- Blasters. Tower optimal and tracking is calculated from the control tower. Blaster optimal and falloff combined is less than the radius of all but a small tower's shield.

- Containers in corp hangars. Please do this, and allow us to restrict who can remove containers from a given division.

- Divisions in the ship maintenance array. As a stopgap measure.

Two weeks further and still waiting on the info CCP Seagull told us in this same thread would come to us end of February.

Guess it's such bad news they're going to hide it under fanfest and hope nobody notices it.

Added a link to the new dev blog in the first post of the thread: http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/odyssey-summer-expansion-starbase-iterations/

"Since we at CCP have made mistakes with expectations management surrounding this feature in the past"

ya think?

Roles.


Not the kind you would have for dinner, but the ones we need to make things easier for us in game.

I have guys in my corp that want and/or need to make ammo, rigs, drones, etc., and we keep the BPC's available in the corporate hangar for this reason but ........



These stupid roles!!! You're giving me a headache with these roles!!!




I can't allow my corpmates to simply run the job from even their own hangar or else they could mess up the other jobs we have running. My indy guy will freak out if someone were to accidentally cancel a research job, and the way you guys setup these roles is very very messy.

We need a fix. Now. I can't have my indy guy do everything, nor does he want to keep track of ammo for one guy, missiles for another, crystals for miners, etc.. He has enough on his plate with building, researching, and making copies of BPO's for corp use.


I know you can't do anything about it with the Odyssey, but really ..... this has gone on for far too long.

Another update and what do we hear from CCP on POS's?****crickets****

Thank you Mal for the update.
CCP Seagull said that POS's won't be fixed in one Release or Expansion.
It will have to be fixed in sections.
This threadnaught IS just a HUGE reflection of how important said POS's are to EVERY player.

I just wonder if the OLD POS code is so bad, why not write/code new structures and phase out the old ones.

Programming is fun. You just have to be a masochistic sociopath to see the true beauty of the art.

When I invite a new buddy to join EVE Online I can say, "Hey stay here in my POS, it's a space station where I live, work, research, build, and defend my assets in the EVE universe, and I don't have to be a member of a huge alliance to do so, heck a one man corp can have his own POS space station home. Now of course EVE is a dangerous place so defending a POS from attack is risky at best for a one man corp so join us and be a little safer."

When was ccp's last update/word on this?


o7

Would it be possible to introduce modular, new art, POS as something new, such as the long awaited player habitats

Such micro-POS could be initially separate from the current POS system. As each new module is introduced their art and mechanics can be reconsidered., allowing for the steady introduction of modules until the habitat system can be applied to POS system.

This would provide the kind of content (and new shiny) an expansion can be based around while heading towards iteration on an existing system that is too large to tackled all at once.

If you are(or end up being) disappointed in CCP and wish to send them a message financially, plex is not the way to do it.

if something needs trained, you're better off to pay cash for the sub and save the money for getting 3 months at a time.
Buying plex actually makes more money for CCP than paying with cash/card/paypal and buying blocks of time longer than 1 month

A GTC that converts into 2 plex costs $34.95, that's $17.475 for each plex (month of game time) as opposed to $14.95 straight cash purchase for one month.
That same $34.95 that when converted to plex will give you 2 months game time can be made to give you 3 months time by simply adding $3.90 to it making a total of $38.85 and saving $6.00 or making CCP take $6.00 less to provide you with the same amount of game time and if you factor in the additional costs of the GTC it can be said that you are actually making them give you that same 3 months of game time that brings in $52.425 to CCP via plex for $13.57 less.

So, if you want to make a statement, PLEX is basically saying "Here CCP, have MORE MONEY!!!!!"

just something to consider.
o/
Celly Smunt.

Dear CCP,
a year has passed and I'm still part of this small portion of community. Do we have to riot on forums again to receive anything at all?

Moving forward, I hear a rumor that POS work has been placed on the back burner again because of "issues with the game code"

Has anyone else heard anything about this?

Celly

I dream a dream of a modular Minny POS capable of doing an excellent imitation of a trash heap.

Of course some functionality would be nice too :)



Just keeping this up there, can't let something like this slip too far past page one during election season.

POS love bump, and an acknowledgement of more good points both in favor of and against the way CCP has dealt with the POS issue so far.
Understandably, due to the nature of the legacy coding and the lack of anyone who originally wrote it still being accessible/working for CCP, there will be some delays and some cautionary steps forward so as not to totally break something that does at least "work", however those factors in and of themselves do not lessen the haste that we as players feel should be implemented in fixing/replacing them.

o/
Celly Smunt

I just wanted to drop in and say:

Really, don't worry about this being forgotten about

And can people let a CSM member they 'trust' know what they use POS for, along with things like a breakdown of how you would fit a POS for a particular purpose, and what kind of numbers you have of them?


For example: You might have a POS at a moon, that has a moon miner in it. But the actual purpose of the POS is for supercap storage, or maybe staging. It's something that's hard to determine purely from the database, and could lead to skewed numbers.

(We'll pass it on to CCP. Pick a CSM member that you don't think will break your opsec.

It's something that's hard to determine purely from the database, and could lead to skewed numbers.

Thanks for the time to let us know...

Are you guys wanting this so that you can figure out what tiers of the new POSes there should be? or just usage stats from a player perspective instead of simple numbers with no point of view?


Are the discussions still going on in the realm of "Modular" posses?

and Briefly:

If built in the form of a mini-outpost, where the labs/assembly arrays/ect can be "attached" to the base unit wouldn't having PG and CPU and even "connector" upgrades to the base unit be better than having different sized units?
Faction versions of them would of course start out with better Bonuses/PG/CPU/Connectors based on their respective races than the base units

This would negate the need to know what players are using them for mostly because the ability to add an upgrade to the POS would make most poses fit most playstyles if upgraded to do so.

As stated in another post, if there is a CSMA there to begin with, it could safely be assumed (I hate that term though) that at some point there's going to be something big in there, or a whole lot of little ships, so the
Module" for ship storage could be discernible in some manner based on color, or shape so that a person could visually tell which one it is.
Same with other Modules as well.

of course, I have lots of ideas LOL, but I'll just throw those out there for starters.

thanks again
o/
Celly Smunt

I would love to see POS's fixed and they will have to be, the jump nerf will kill small corp POS operations in Null. Well done CCP Fozzie and crew.

Amazing isn't it?

Freshly back after 4 years and I see that POS's are as rubbish as ever.

I see lots of talk about new player retention. Crap game mechanics that are no fun to operate always puts people off and setting up and running a POS should be a goal that many aspire to. It should be engaging and rewarding gameplay. Imagine you're 3 months in, in a new corp of 10 people. You've scraped enough together to set up a modest POS to live out of in a system with no stations. To be a base of operations to build and reprocesses and PVP out of. You come to set it up and what happens next is a teeth grinding affair of drudgery followed by an "Is that it" feeling.

I remember seeing my first POS - a disappointing bunch of unrelated floating bits of junk, not the impressive fortified array of doom I pictured, with spacecraft docked up to it ready for your use. Setting one up was even less fun and as for dismantling it...

A reworked "Dead horse" style modular POS system is long overdue.

Let's break this down into a couple smaller ideas first because as a former programmer I know it can't all be done at once ..... but if you look both inside the box, and outside it, you can find solutions to most of the problems quickly.



In-Game Art and its effects on the game

Why are you guys trying to re-invent the wheel? You have literally TONS of in-game art you could use, albeit with some changes in color and appearance, which is already optimized for gameplay that won't effect it, and that would be more than effective in setting up a modular POS:

- Wolf Burgan's Hideout could be used as a small tower.

- Fort Kumar could be a large tower.

- Serpentis Hideout could be a medium tower/modular POS.

- Sansha's Hub as an example of another style of modular POS.

- Sansha's Occupied Mining Colony could be useful for moon mining operations, and it could serve as a large modular POS.

- Elohim X-Instinct LADAR site could also be another modular POS that you could upgrade over time.

- Forgotten Frontier Quarantine Outpost would be a useful example of a small/medium modular POS.




Security and Access on modular towers/POS's

Think corporate outpost using alliance outposts as the primer.

This could be addressed by simply having the same initernal mechanics of an outpost or station with individual hangars and a corp hangar with it's seven slots applied to the modular tower/POS. Since the backend mechanics for this are already built into the game, you simply tailor them around a modular tower and treat it like an outpost except that it cannot be "taken over" like an outpost. And if you need more room, it's modular; you simply add it.

The biggest issue we have with managing towers is how the access rights are setup. If you could lose the drop down lists (example: "Based at ..... ") and simply make a checkbox like you have for titles (example: "View" checked=you can see items but cannot take, "Take" checked = "View" and can place/remove items and automatically checks "View")

Having individual hangars, and/or allowing them, based on say new players to a WH corp, would eliminate the concerns 99% of us have about corporate theft and would solve the problems with inventory and loot when it comes to who owns what.

Gameplay

Towers should continue to provide what they offer now in the form of bonuses/defense/etc., and other than revamping some of the code on how they operate, they should continue to provide the services they offer now.

And since they are modular, adding and removing sections to a modular tower would be just like adding/removing from an outpost.

Bump

today's bump aside, I wonder if i could activate an Entosis Link module on the dev team?

just a thought.
o/
Celly

Hopefully we'll see something before the end of this year.

And lets face it talk is cheap and frankly CCP have even managed to cheapen that phrase. Until it is actually done that is all it is cheap talk.

So, 2 years later, finally some of the suggestions made in this thread are not only acknowledged, but told we are getting a majority of them "Soon TM"

http://www.twitch.tv/ccp/b/638754943?t=6h56m49s

Starting this year.

o/
Celly

OK, just mislead again, but there's really not much difference..

will poses even get yet their lst gleaming? maybe instead of phasing them out at final stage of release of citadel structures give them niche use sush moon harvesting , gas reaction . there is alot of unreleased pos structures too theres on google eve items database and poses would have remote repairing modules too but they were never released .

Sadly you would have made more of us happy by simply re-skinning the existing POSes than what you've given us so far, especially since it's nothing more than a bit of expensive, glorified eye candy at the moment without any real functionality and substance.

Just my opinion.

o/
Celly